Episode 251 | Torn Asunder - Bernie Tocholke (Part I)

A family can survive a lot, but it is different when the pressure comes from a place that calls itself holy. We’re joined by author Bernie Tocholke, whose memoir Torn Asunder in the Jaws of a Cult traces how church conflict and high-control religion helped rip his home apart and dragged the pain into divorce court, crushing financial demands, and even jail time. It’s an honest conversation about church hurt that doesn’t stay theoretical, because Bernie lived the consequences.

We talk about what cult dynamics can look like inside church culture: obedience framed as “faith,” questions treated like rebellion, and spiritual language used to control medical choices and family loyalty. Bernie explains why he wrote the book even though publishing rarely pays, and why hearing from quiet readers who felt seen made the work worth it. If you’re searching for answers about spiritual abuse, religious trauma, or cult recovery, his story offers real markers to watch for and the hard truth about what these systems can do.

We also spend time on healing, not as a slogan but as a process. Bernie opens up about bitterness, how writing became a release, and how nightmares followed him for years until he finally named what happened and challenged the false teaching head-on. He shares the practices that helped him keep going, including a sincere cry to God and the surprising power of humor when everything feels dark. We close by talking forgiveness, what it is, what it is not, and how you can let go of hate without pretending the harm was fine.

If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with someone carrying church wounds, and leave a review so more people can find it. What question would you want to ask someone who survived spiritual abuse and rebuilt their life?

Visit us online: https://woundedheartswoundedchurches.com

Transcript

Welcome To Wounded Hearts

Prince Moon 0:01

Good day listeners. We present to you our podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches. We discuss a variety of topics that are important to the church. Examples include sexual abuse, all types of addictions, religious abuse, and recovery. This platform provides counseling sessions, meaningful question and answer, and a counseling continuum. Our co-host includes Janil, our technical director. We have an impressive array of program contributors. And I'm your host. My name is Prince, founder of Antioch U Center, 5013C program, licensed counselor, now retired. So join in this exciting podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches, and be a part of the healing process.

Meeting Bernie And His Memoir

Prince Moon 0:52

But today I've got a friend of mine, and I do mean that. He's an author. He's wrote a book called Torn Asunder, Bernie Tocholke. He's here with us. He's a father, uh, husband, written an exciting book. Uh he does his own publishing many times. I read the book, and I hold it up for you. It's an excellent read. Uh, it's I I read it cover to cover, good book. And you probably may want a copy. We'll talk about that in a moment. But the book has all the components, friends. It has some sadness in there that really can draw a tear from your eye, but it also shock you with the facts. And of course, I was at uh vacation in a mall reading and I laughed out loud. It was, I mean, Bernie has a way of drawing you into his reading, and uh it was good. So I read through it in a couple of days. I mean, just read through it, but it's an excellent read. Let me say this: we have a lot of excellent uh Church of God authors, but they don't get the airtime that they need to be known. Uh Lee Hampton wrote a book on sin, Carl Kennelling on Revelation. Sunday School book was out years ago that was updated. Uh, also Marjorie Sally wrote a book, Carl Caton wrote some things. Uh Tim Ellis wrote a book on experience. There's another book written by a friend of mine called Each One, Each One about Soul Witting. So we want to give authors a chance to let their books be known because it's hard. Most of these big publishers, they don't like Church of God's stuff too much. I tried for years and years. We want to give these guys a chance to get some of these good reads out here. And you know, it again, you'll like this one. It really is. I enjoyed it so I know the author that I'm biased, but it was a good read. I enjoyed it so much. So we're here tonight with Brother Bernie.

Where To Find The Book

Prince Moon 2:50

Brother Bernie, first of all, how can we acquire the book? What should we do to get the copy of the book?

Bernie Tocholke 2:55

Anywhere you look on the internet, anywhere, just type in the name, Torn Asunder in the Jaws of a Cult, or put my name on there. Uh, it comes up. Uh, Barnes and Nobles, you can get it through there, you can get it. Uh, they don't stock it, but they they can get it, they can order it anywhere. Uh, one thing I want to say right now is that I make very, very little. I have not got that check for royalties. A lot of my books that I wrote, never gotten a penny for royalties. It's a scam out there for publishing companies and stuff to pay for it and so forth. But uh, so it's not for the money issue. But when I first got started, I basically said, God, if there's any way that I can bring it out and save one soul from it, it's all worth it. And I did get those calls where thank you, thank you, thank you. I can't tell you who I am, but I've been getting false information. I deal with these people, and we finally got sick and tired of getting a response, but not an answer. And so uh I can't tell you who I am, but thank you for writing the book. It's all worth it then. Wow, wow.

Why The Family Was Torn Apart

Prince Moon 4:05

Brother Bernie, Torn Asunder. Explain the name of the book. Why'd you name that book uh Torn Asunder?

Bernie Tocholke 4:10

Torn Asunder because the family got ripped all apart. I had seven, I had seven children. Two of the oldest, two oldest uh boys, they were already mentally out of the system. They wanted to leave, figure out how to get out of it. But I was still stuck in it, still wondering, still trying to believe, maybe trying to figure out a way how I can escape too. But uh when it all went down, basically the three of us uh came home, wife was gone, five children were gone, moved in with the pastor, and uh things went downhill from there, got into the court cases, divorce. I spent uh th a three-month in jail, two months out, three months in, uh, two, three years out, a full six months in. So I spent a year of my life for something I had no control over.

When Doctrine Turns Into Control

Prince Moon 5:01

And this was all dealing with church issues, am I correct?

Bernie Tocholke 5:04

With the church issues because I was not going according to their beliefs. Uh I didn't uh see the divine healing that uh I don't want to say the last name right now, but Pat. Pat was my pastor, and uh he oh, you I went ahead and bought an inhaler for my oldest son that was having asthma, just breathing hard, he couldn't breathe. And and so well, you gotta call for the elder of the church to come in, pray, anoint for. Well, my son was breathing hard when Pat came, he was breathing hard when he left. There was no divine healing. And so I put a bunch of cards together, took recipe cards, put them together, and wrote every single scripture from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, how Jesus, and straightway he rose up, and straightway his hand was healed, and straightway the issue of blood was healed, and straightway and right away and immediately. And uh Danny, that uh your previous host was talking about. Uh Danny, he uh he says, You're not reading your Bible, the ten lepers, sir. They healed it, they were healed as they left, as they went. I said, Okay, where did Jesus stand? Where was the tabernacle? Where's where where did they have to go to? How far? Two months later, and all of a sudden they came back to thank Jesus. No, Jesus was still in the same spot, so it it was a matter of moments. They were healed as they left, and and so I I kind of disagreed with that. There is divine healing in this in the world, yeah. But so that it got torn apart. So I'm I'm getting off on the rabbit trail here, brother Bernie.

Prince Moon 6:40

I I don't want to bring this up, but again, I do. I read, I love your family, love you, you know that. But the way your daughter spoke to you over those religious issues, that me. Because the Bible says, children, obey your parents, you know, respect your parents, and the things that she said hurt me. I mean, uh I don't want to talk about that too much, but I know it must have been devastating to hear her say that too.

Bernie Tocholke 7:11

Oh yes, oh yes, yes. I you can talk about anything in that book, anything of my life. I I'm over it. I remember one time uh a friend of mine, more of a relative, actually it was my brother, he went through two divorces. He says, Yeah, you're gonna be in denial, shock, then anger, then shock, then denial, then anger, and it goes round and around and around with different emotions. And when you finally all of a sudden get to the point where it doesn't bother you, you can talk about it freely. That's when you're over it. And so that was the counseling he gave me in. That was that's true. I can talk about anything in that book.

Prince Moon 7:49

And Bernie, you loved your wife and your family, didn't you? I loved her. You wanted them to be stay with you and to take care of them, didn't you? Yes. That comes across uh in the book. Bernie, why did you write the book?

Writing Through Anger And Bitterness

Prince Moon 8:03

What was the motivation to write the book?

Bernie Tocholke 8:06

Well, women have an advantage over men. They go ahead and they go to their friends, their women, you know, oh, he treats me so bad, and this and that, you know, and this is what he does, and so forth, you know, and they talk and all of a sudden it feels good. Yeah. Men, how's it going with your wife? Yeah, whatever. You know, and they don't talk about it. And so when I started writing, it was a release, it was a vent to be able to get rid of uh the built-up anger, the built is and uh you gave me a question about uh bitterness, how you can get uh that you didn't go bitter. I was bitter.

Prince Moon 8:45

Well, let's go there. Tell us about bitterness. How, when, where, what, why?

Bernie Tocholke 8:50

Okay. At the time, it uh was a bitterness in a sense that everything was going wrong and it was out of my control. I couldn't do it. I was framed with 11 children and uh child support so high that I didn't even make that amount, 430 a week. In wintertime, I did not even make that in a week. And so it struggled, and now I got to go to jail. I paid $18,000 in 22 months. Nope, contempt of court, and that's the first time I went in for a six-month sentence, and she let me out in three months and then threw me in for another three months. The judge did. Uh I was angry, I was angry, and uh, there's people that read my book, the one that you wrote, and they said, Yeah, it looks like you got an axe to grind. But then I wrote uh a few years later another one, and uh the cult surviving the cult mutation,

Nightmares And A Second Book

Bernie Tocholke 9:46

and that happened because I was still having nightmares like 10 years later. Still nightmares. I mean, just just uh the coming, they're coming, they come, go cult, you know, and woke up and it's screaming in bed. I was screaming in jail one time because the cult was after me. And uh and so I I wrote the second book by getting up at one in the morning, couldn't sleep, so I got on the computer and typed out ten things that are contrary to what the Bible teaches, contrary to what the cult teaches. And once I put down that, wrote those things down, elaborated on it, I never had a nightmare since. And so I came out of it that way.

Prince Moon 10:31

And again, I want to reiterate so this is church issues, uh church problems. Most of this was church issues, or all or some, how much more what percent was church issues?

Bernie Tocholke 10:44

It all was instigated by the church. Wow. All instigated by the church, and then it got into the court because of the church, and I believe there was money under the table from uh her attorney to the judge. Um, there was a friend of mine that once uh news somebody on the inside of the uh Kenosha court system, and he says, Yeah, I believe his story, talking about me. I believe his story because every judge can be bribed and has been bribed, according to his witness that he saw the love of money, money, love of money, yeah, the money,

Finding Bernie’s Videos And Pages

Bernie Tocholke 11:21

money.

Prince Moon 11:21

Bernie, I appreciate you because you have been through horrendous situations. I've read the book, I've seen your information. In fact, how can we contact your content? What's your information for your content on on YouTube or Facebook? How can we contact you?

Bernie Tocholke 11:38

Okay. Um, I am not very computer literate and exactly where everything goes. James DeGrafenreed that was uh on your podcast last week and so forth. He gave that information. Uh, he basically is doing the setup and all that, taking my videos that I make, a little short three, four, five, ten, twenty-minute videos, and he's putting that all on there. Um, there's a website being built, but it's a little slower than what I want it to be. But uh it's um uh let us reason together. Okay, but there are so many people that have used that and see you scroll and scroll and scroll, and you can't find it. And uh so it's got to get the uh algorithms, whatever, up so it'd be able to be seen. Um uh I got a Facebook page Let us reason together, seven, I think it is.

Prince Moon 12:34

But uh James DeGrafenried is the one that knows all about that, where I do not well, it's not a problem because they can just contact our office and we'll shoot the information right to you. I have your email or your phone number, so not a problem. So if you want the book, friends, we can definitely connect with you in the book. All right, our next question.

Practical Steps To Leave Bitterness

Prince Moon 12:55

I need to get back to this uh situation. Now, you've been through horrendous situations, but yet you're you you you're healing well. You're contacting people, you're exhorting, you're doing charts, all of that. So, what what is the process if someone's bitter? What can they do?

Bernie Tocholke 13:14

First of all, you gotta seek God. I did not want to seek God. I mean, God, you're allowing this altar. I happen to be. I don't oh God, but please help me, help me, help me. You know, it's it's so it's a crying out to God, a sincere cry. God help me to get through this. I look back, I can't believe I made it through that dark valley. But uh another thing that I give a lot of uh tribute to is humor. If you lose humor, if you lose humor, you get you you lose everything. I remember coming back in Osha, coming back to Minnesota, just crying. I mean, it was rough. And I heard something on the radio that prompted prompted me to uh um prompted me to uh um think about what I'm doing. The judge said, Moya, you got a lot of children, you shouldn't, you know. Yeah, they frame me with 11, but I only had seven, and two of them are with me in Minnesota. And uh and I thought, and I was just going through this analyzation of my mind. I'm in in the front of the court. I visualized myself in a court. I said uh I says, Judge, yeah, it didn't work. Yeah, I got seven children, it didn't work. What didn't work? Well, um I had water in the basement and uh the water, I waterproofed my house, and uh the water quit. Then I had a lot of rodents in the house, so I mouseproofed my house, and the mice were gone, and then I child proofed my house. That did not work because they and I started laughing.

Prince Moon 14:52

I was laughing in the car, having so much fun, and all of a sudden the tears and um all the deep, little way the Bible says that laughter is like is a good medicine, so in fact, you allude that, you really do. You in your book, and you I I laughter is a blessing, it really is, no doubt about that. It is

Forgiveness Without Excusing Harm

Prince Moon 15:13

all right. Uh you have any advice to those who have wounded people?

Bernie Tocholke 15:20

How to talk to somebody that has wounded. They believe they are right anyway. There's not going to be. The thing is, what I have a problem with trying to decipher exactly where it is at is God turned them over to a reprobate mind already, where they just believe it so strongly that they are right and I am wrong. I don't know. I don't know how to counsel somebody like that. I forgave them. I thought many times that if I saw a car pulled alongside the road, flat tires, and they're fighting with the thing, and I pull over behind them, gonna help them, and oh, it's Pat. What would I do? I'd help him. I'd help him. There was a time in my life I would have just got back in my vehicle and left because I was bitter at him, but not anymore. I I have no ill feelings against him. I have no ill feelings against my wife. I wish she would get saved, make the things, the problems that she did in the past, correct them. You know, she told the judge that uh that I grabbed her wrist, which it was not true. And uh she made up a story, and I got arrested for that. That's the first time I went to jail. Oh, he hurt me, hurt me, hurt me. I didn't, I didn't. And uh so she just deliberately lied. And so I don't have any hate hatred for her. Um I wish she would get saved. So yeah, I don't know what to say on that question.

Prince Moon 16:47

You know, Bernie, it seems that religious hurt is one of the worst types of pain. Is that correct?

Bernie Tocholke 16:54

Yeah, I think so. I think so. I uh I think about uh some of the emails I would get on my website. You're not the only one that went through a divorce. Wise up, you just shut up, you know, that type of thing. I've had text messages like that, and but there's so much differences how it happened, how how the divorce happened, it's because of other interferences.

Prince Moon 17:17

So I can only imagine the level of uh of pain, the level of temptation to do certain things or think certain things. But the good part about it is God has brought you through, and I thank God of

Religious Pain And Next Week

Prince Moon 17:32

that. We are about out of time now, but we're gonna have Brother Bernie back to talk more about his book. So we need you to text in your questions, uh, 1866-538-3664. We'll talk about how to get a copy of this good read. So we'll be back next week with Brother Bernie. My friend, thank you so much for coming today. We really appreciate that. Try Engineer, thank you also too, and we'll see you all next week. Have a good day.