Episode 252 | Torn Asunder - Bernie Tocholke (Part II)

Church hurt doesn’t just bruise your feelings. It can reshape how you think, who you trust, and whether you believe God is safe. We sit down with author Bernie Tocholke to unpack the story behind his book Torn Asunder and why telling the truth about religious abuse can be part of the healing. 

We talk about what keeps people trapped in high-control churches and cult-like systems, especially the “we’re the only true church” message that makes leaving feel like losing salvation. Bernie shares concrete examples of coercive control, including distorted Scripture and pressure that reaches into personal choices and finances. If you’ve ever wondered how to spot the warning signs of a cult church, this conversation gives you language for what you’ve sensed. 

We also get practical about recovery. We discuss why isolation is dangerous after spiritual trauma, why some people swing from church pain into addiction, and why peer support matters so much. Prince connects the dots to real-world counseling approaches and the AA model of people helping people, while Bernie describes trauma symptoms like nightmares and the slow process of wounds becoming scars that no longer control your life. 

We end with hope rooted in reality: family relationships can be restored over time, forgiveness is possible, and staying anchored in Jesus matters more than loyalty to a harmful group. If this helped you, subscribe, share it with someone who’s struggling, and leave a review so more wounded hearts can find a path back to healing.

Visit us online: https://woundedheartswoundedchurches.com

Transcript

Welcome And Purpose Of Podcast

Prince Moon 0:01

Good day, listeners. We present to you our podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches. We discuss a variety of topics that are important to the church. Examples include sexual abuse, all types of addictions, religious abuse, and recovery. This platform provides counseling sessions, meaningful question and answer, and a counseling continuum. Our co-host includes Janila Technical Director. We have an impressive array of program contributors. And I'm your host. My name is Prince, founder of Antioch U Center, Father 13C Program, Licensed Counselor, now retired. So join in this exciting podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches, and be a part of the healing process. Alright,

Meet Bernie And His Book

Prince Moon 0:53

tonight we have a friend of mine. He's an author, uh, Father, Husband, Exorder, and wrote a book called Torn Asunder. Very sober reading book. Bernie Tahoki is here with us. Good man for being here tonight, but we're glad you're here tonight. Glad to have you here. You know, I read the book cover to cover, and he has a litany of different ideas that are so uh uh uh inspiring. Number one, he is it's sometimes it's sad. It it is. It really had me sad. Other parts of it, you were shocked at what occurred. I mean, you just don't know. And I was at uh on vacation, went to a store, wife was shopping, I was sitting down reading, and I read the book. I was laughing out loud in the middle of the mall. So he runs the gambit of the different emotions in the book. It's a good read, and to get a copy copy, you can contact him or even us, and we will let him know what you want. How many copies? Brother

Why He Wrote Torn Asunder

Prince Moon 2:04

Rennie, why did you write the book torn asunder? What was your reason for writing the book? What was your motivation?

Bernie Tocholke 2:13

The motivation, my main motivation is to help others, to see the truth, to see how you can get ensnared into the fits of occultism, and then also to the release myself, be able to expose it or release it, like I mentioned in the last episode about uh uh women get over their emotions a lot quicker, over their catastrophes, divorce, whatever, than men do, because men will kind of bottle it in. So I I exposed that, and then it was a release to be able to give that book and then also be able to have uh other people call me and say, thank you, thank you, thank you. That was a good book. So uh they were just gonna read one chapter and they ended up reading the whole thing and and uh went to bed at like one in the morning. I've had people call and tell me that. So the reason is to help others.

Prince Moon 3:08

Yeah, I I agree with that. It you can't put it down really. I read, read, read, took a couple of breaks, but yeah, I wanted to get done with it, and it was it was it was it was good to read that. Any

Steps After Church Wounds

Prince Moon 3:18

advice to those who've been wounded? What should they do? Should they isolate? Should they give up the church of God? Should they leave God or just what should they do? You're talking they've been hurt. What should they do? What steps did you take?

Bernie Tocholke 3:32

Okay, the thing is, they have been in one ditch so long. In a ditch of confusion, a ditch of uh just getting wrong information that this is the one true church and stuff, and it's not. The one true church is a unified church uh worldwide to every bloodwashed one. That is the church of God. God added to the church daily as he saw fit, and the ones that uh accepted salvation, that is the real church, and so they pull out of this ditch. Sad thing is, every mile of road has two miles of ditches, and so they fly into the other ditch and uh into depravity and drugs and alcohol, and they go far from God and they're lost in in sin. And uh, that is a disaster. I'd never, when I pulled out of there, I was going in a tailspin, but I did not go the other direction and want to be far from God. But it was a tough challenge to make it through that dark valley. So uh, how can you counsel out of it? I would say uh seek God regardless. God, what is the truth? Where can I please stay with me? You know, pray out to God and seek other individuals that have gone through it. Seek me, seek the book, seek right other people, other people will help you. You cannot go by yourself, right? Where three are gathered together, you know, God is with you, but one isolated individual is not good because then you go off in a deep ditch on the other side.

Prince Moon 5:10

So Bernie, good point. Uh good point, a couple of good points, really. That's what we do here, friends. We bring on people like Bernie, who's been through. I read the book, it it was a catastrophe. I mean, I I can't begin to discuss the the feelings that he felt. I mean, it it's really uh traumatic, say the least. And so he comes on here, you know, that you can make it. But you mentioned the idea of reaching out, and that's so important to reach out those who have been through, like you, Brother Bernie.

Holding On To God

Prince Moon 5:49

You mentioned that you never felt to leave God. What held you to that? Many leave God, leave the church and say, forget it. You didn't do that. What kept you uh silent enough to keep on seeking God?

Bernie Tocholke 6:06

Yeah, well, people operate either the fear of fear of loss or desire for gain. I want to get to heaven, I want to get to heaven. I but that's a cheap thing. Just to have salvation for fire insurance, that's not good either. I mean, I I want to do right, I want to be right with God. Uh God show me the way. God show me the way. And uh he just opened up doors, and I've had people, you know, kind of preach to me, and I didn't care for that. Counsel me is different, but uh, but when people yeah, well, you you deserve what you did, you got her into the mess, you know. You you you made tracks toward that particular church, you know, that that was not good. And so I I hung on, but uh but it's not me, it's God. When I asked him to help me, when I asked him to help me, he did bring supply me the the grace and the passions to continue, and then uh I get turned on when there's little projects, little videos, little things that I can do to expose, you know, exhort at a church or something. I I get turned on with that. It's it's scary, but I kind of like like that. And that's a healing.

Prince Moon 7:19

That's a healing. It is, it is.

When Leaders Refuse To Change

Prince Moon 7:22

You know, you mentioned last week about ministers who've wounded people. If they believe they're right, they really can't change, can they?

Bernie Tocholke 7:31

No, I I don't think so. I don't think so. It has to have something, something from God has to come in to be able to get to that point because I've had several snippets of uh videos out there, bubbles videos and stuff on my uh uh James Graffner put them all on there. I got a half a dozen or so of different videos I put out there, little eye, you know, you can see visual things. Right, right.

Prince Moon 7:58

I've seen those, yeah.

Bernie Tocholke 7:59

You've seen those.

Prince Moon 8:00

Yes, I have. Yeah.

Bernie Tocholke 8:02

And yet the people seem like they're blinded. Like like my sign right behind me. I like that that sign. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And uh I got corn cobs up too. There's ears, but those ears can't hear. And there's pastors that are claim they are pastors, apostles that claim they are apostles and are not in Ephesians and talks about uh uh the uh Ephesians in Revelation, it talks about Ephesians, knew that they were not apostles because they were liars, but yet when they don't have ears to hear, there's not much hope. I don't know. It's difficult for a pastor that believes he's so right, you know. Like I'm just first name basis, Ray or Pat or something like that. I don't know if they have the the capability to turn to God unless God pulls them, unless God draws them. Because they just still think they're right.

Prince Moon 9:03

Why People Leave After Cult Control

Prince Moon 10:00

Brother Bernie, some people just leave the church and they just give up. Were they in a weakened position prior to the church issues, or were they just destroyed doing the church issues? What was their issue? Why do they just give up on God and just leave the church?

Bernie Tocholke 10:29

Because at the church, this congregation, this cult, yeah, it's a church, but it's a cult, they preached that they are the only right ones. Everybody else is Babylon, even your church, uh Brother Moon, even your church is Babylon. Everybody is Babylon, everybody, no matter what, if they have church of God, no, if they are not their particular flavor, they are wrong. And so when you get indoctrinated into that over and over and over and over and over again, um, you know, indoctrinate the people like uh like Hitler did. The people will do whatever they do. I mean, they'll, you know, there's so many religions out there where you get indoctrinated so bad that they'll do suicide, kamikaze, whatever. And uh that's what's happening within a cult, too. So when they leave, well, I left the one true church. The only way I can get back to it is to go back into one true church, but I don't want to go there, so I'm lost. And I'll I'll just go drinking, and especially if they were born into it, like some of some of my children, they were born into it. They that's all they've ever known. They have no other idea of what else is out there, and so a lot of times when they leave, well, they got to look like the world, smell like the world. I don't want to look anything like what I used to be. Amen. Amen. And uh, you want drugs? Sure. You want alcohol, drunk, yeah, whatever, whatever. I just want to get far away from what I used to be, and that's uh that's the evil there.

Prince Moon 12:00

And Bernie, that's very common. I know scores of people in that condition. I I just spoke to a couple of them uh just a couple weeks ago. They're in that condition right now. I'm reaching out to them tonight that they can get help.

Getting Right With God Again

Prince Moon 12:16

Now, Bernie, if I've been wounded or if I've wounded others, will God guide me if I want to be led by him? How to get myself back to a good shape spiritually speaking? Yes.

Bernie Tocholke 12:27

Yes, yes. If you want to be right with God, you can get right as long as there's life and breath in your soul yet, as long as you're still alive, you can get help. Um, but if you go over the day of redemption, is when you take your last breath and you've never never accepted Christ and never drew true close to him. Yes, it's it's over then. But uh, if you want to draw close to God, God will draw close to you.

Prince Moon 12:55

And that is true. Can that happen today, right now, if I want to?

Bernie Tocholke 13:00

Yes. Yes, seek God, but be sincere. You don't have to have fancy words and stuff like that, but you got to cry out, God, please. I don't want to be lost. I want to be right with you. I want God, please bring your spirit down inside of me. And when you have that sincerity and just the drawing, please, God help me, He will come, He will answer that prayer. So I believe that can happen. And then draw close to other people that have been through the same things. Right. Like uh suppose I've never been drunk in my life, you know. So what? But suppose I was a drunk. I'd have to go to other people that have been drunks, you know, that used to be to help me because they understand where I was at. That's true. They know that I'm a dry alcoholic for the rest of my life. I would, you know, just if I have one drink, it's it's too many. That's true. And I will be right back into drunk again. So I cannot even have a single drink if that was my case. And so you evolve yourself around, involve yourself around other AA members and stuff. That is a good thing. And so if you have somebody that was caught in a cult, go around other people that have been caught in the cult too. And how did you do it? How were you out? Mingle with those type of people to get out of it. So, no, it's it's important to mingle with other people.

Peer Support That Actually Helps

Prince Moon 14:27

Well, you're right, uh, Bernie, in my counseling background, I had a uh chance to start an AA meeting and here in Macon, where I am, but anyway, AA has about two million adherents. And the reason why it's helping each other through the program. Yep. NAAA, there's many different groups that do that. They have a self-help in there, and we're doing that here in a way, letting you know that you've been wounded or hurt, you can make it, and these guys have been through it, and they can tell you the steps that they take. It's not theoretical, it's not just emotions, not a church service, but actual feet on the ground, how to get through these situations. Any comments on that, Brother Bernie?

Bernie Tocholke 15:10

Yes, I talked with other people that came out of the system, much younger than me. I'm not gonna say where it was because that would incriminate other people, but there were a bunch of boys, young boys, just uh 20, 16, you know, 16, all the way up to about 25. And uh I asked them, do you still have nightmares? Oh yeah, oh yeah, every single one of them still had nightmares. I know what that is. That's the reason I wrote the second book on on that issue there about the nightmares. So, yeah, there's gonna be nightmares. Leave the system, get out of it.

Prince Moon 15:48

Now, Bernie,

Trauma And Nightmares After Church Harm

Prince Moon 15:49

uh, as a ex-counselor, I'm retired now. So you're telling me that church issues can split can produce nightmares?

Bernie Tocholke 16:00

Yes. Yes, nightmares that you're wrong, you're lost, you're the sermons keep coming at you. Uh, I remember Pat, my pastor or whatever, he would come and interrogate my children not to go north to Minnesota. It was a Saturday, it was a Friday or Saturday. We want to go up north, we'd be back for church time. No, they do not need to go. Uh, control issues, you know, dictatorship there. And so I violated that order. Anyway, while I was in jail, um, I had a dream. It was a nightmare. Here's my oldest daughter in the driver's seat. Well, she doesn't even have a driver's license, so the dream is, you know, crazy. But my other children were coming out of the house, coming out of the house, get in the van, get in the van, get in the van, go, go, go. Here comes Pat out of the house already. He's chasing. Go, go, you know, and I woke myself up and I look around, and in the jail, there's other people looking at me, still nightmares while I was in jail.

Prince Moon 17:04

So now, Michael, some people think that church splits, division don't cause trauma. Yes, it does. Yes. Uh, this counselor was talking to me about that, and he said, no, it doesn't. But see, he doesn't know what we know. I'm sorry, it's not in the church of God, unfortunately, but it does cause trauma. It can cause all types of emotional problems. Yes, it can. So we're here with guys like Bernie. You can make it. Wounds can be Bernie. Can wounds be healed?

Bernie Tocholke 17:37

Yes. Yes. They can callous over, they can they heal. It's gonna be a scab. You'll see the you'll see the mark yet where you had been cut before. But it's not gonna hurt, it's not gonna be severe, it's not gonna cause trauma anymore, it's not gonna cause nightmares anymore if you go long enough, strong enough through it. So um, yeah, it they can be healed. They can be healed, the wounds can be healed.

Prince Moon 18:03

And so if you've been through or going through issues, you can be healed. Unfortunately, uh, Brother Bernie, there's gonna be some more splits that are on the horizon. Am I correct?

Bernie Tocholke 18:16

Yes. Yes. We're living in a day and age where there's gonna be splits all over, regardless of what denomination, what flavor, whatever, like that. This world is just uh it's a good time to live, but it's also a time where there's a lot of emotions and confusion going on. I believe we're living near the end times.

Division End Times And Staying Anchored

Prince Moon 18:38

I think you're right. Expanding on that a little bit if you would. Tell us more about the end times. Are we are we seeing that now of the division and strife?

Bernie Tocholke 18:45

Yes, the division and strife among churches, among if you know if you don't quite see it the way I do, well, then I gotta start my own church. And then uh a little bit later, then somebody else comes in and well, I don't see it, boom, so it splits again and splits again and splits again. So, yeah, that is going on uh politically, nationally, world with you know, worldwide. There's a lot of confusion, a lot of things going on. Um Matthew 24 talks about a lot of stuff, but that it was also talking about the fall of the uh temple and stuff, but uh you can also see the shadow of things to come. So, no, I believe there's a lot of trouble on the horizon. We have not seen everything yet.

Prince Moon 19:27

No, there's more. And we're trying to prepare people that when these things occur, that you'll have somewhere to connect with, people to talk to, to bring your devil wants to get you out of church permanently. He wants you to sit at home, just give up. And so we know that. So we're trying to be proactive to give you some people who've been through it who can help out. Again, you can text in 1866-383664. Bernie, you know, there's a major split in the uh Methodist Church. They've been on the program, they started a new denomination called the Global Methodist Catholics, another split, assemblies of God, on and on and on. But I'm just so sad that that happens in the church of God. Why does that have to happen to us? I mean, good message, it works, it does work. The church of God works. I know that for sure, but I'm just embarrassed and saying this got to happen to us. Why is that?

Why Churches Split Over Small Things

Bernie Tocholke 20:24

Why is that? Because it's humanity. We are people, we are humans, and I got a different idea than you. So as soon as I find something that you believe in that I don't believe in, okay, that's enough, you know. And and that's humanity. And yet we have to have power beyond that. We have to have the spirit of Christ to say, okay, you disagree, you see it as a scarlet robe, I see it as a purple robe, like in in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, like that when Christ uh had it on. You said it was scarlet, I say it's purple. Big deal. What's the problem? It's it's it's not that different, you know. And so you have an understanding and and you have a chance. Because if it's not a heaven and hell issue, why fight over it? Have be peaceful over it. Easy to be entreated. So fruits of the spirit is uh you know, love, peace, joy, you know, easy to be entreated. Those are the fruits of the spirit. And if you do not have the fruits of the spirit, yes, splits will come.

Prince Moon 21:18

Good point, you know. And uh 13 Corinthians talks about love, and the first thing it talks about is long suffering. Yeah, so be before you castigate someone or split the church, did you long suffer? Now, there's situations that you have to leave. I understand that. But speaking generally, like Brother Bernie said, there should be some long suffering forgiveness of what's in there to maintain unity of God's people. We can say it, but are we doing it? Lord help us to do that.

unknown 21:52

Yeah.

Prince Moon 21:54

Anyone, someone's listening now, uh, we've got people living in Azerbaijan. Listening in Germany, some do the same thing to the same in Africa. Uh, I forget her name now. She texts in, talks about it. Uh well, I'm sorry to do that.

Tennille McLeod 22:10

Stevens, I believe, is her name. Progress.

Prince Moon 22:13

Yes, you're right. It is progress, you're right. Uh what can you tell them? I mean, should they what can they be encouraged? Should they go on? Reach out to those folks who are listening right now who has who wounded or who wounded others.

Bernie Tocholke 22:28

Get anchored in Jesus Christ. Yes. Get anchored in there. If you can anchor yourself strong, I've anchored my soul in the cleft of the rock. If you can anchor in there, you'll make it through. But have a strong anchor. That has to be your main emphasis. And uh all these other things shall pass away. Take a look at uh Matthew, Mark, and Luke and John and uh Revelation or even Old Testament there, and it came to pass, and it came to pass, and came to pass, this happened. It came to everything will pass, everything will pass away. So stay with uh Christ and then if there needs to be a split or it doesn't need to be, is it something worth fighting over? Is it sin? Is it uh you know, that's where the difference comes in. It's not if if you agree with me on such and such issue, and uh stay with Christ. Christ is not not so much the the group, the cult. I had to be with a cult. The cult if the cult says something real stupid I don't agree with, well, I need to come under that. I need to repent that I can see it their way. No, you do not go under something that's not biblical, not godly. So anchor yourself with Christ. Has to be Christ first.

Tennille McLeod 23:58

Now I did have a question about that, if I may. How

How To Spot Cultic Control

Tennille McLeod 24:02

would you know if you're in a cult? How would you know that?

Bernie Tocholke 24:06

Good question. The way I would answer that if you're in a cult, is how much control does the pastor put on you? That's the that's one sign. I was not supposed to buy anything above $50 without the pastor's permission. You know, if I needed to buy a chainsaw, chainsaws back then were six, seven, eight hundred dollars of what I needed. I needed to get permission. My pastor came to me and he says, You never counsel with me. He had been in business, he went bankrupt. He went in business again, he got bankrupt. So he had to work for somebody else and actually became a teacher. And then now he's telling me that I'm in business, I'm cutting trees to, I'm supposed to counsel with him. I says, I I I'm not gonna bring my bicycle to somebody that, you know, or I won't bring my car to somebody that can't fix up my bicycle. And I'm not gonna go to somebody and get counsel of somebody that never succeeded in business. I says, I got to go to somebody that has been in business. Then I could be successful, but not to somebody that does know it. And so the control issue, the the overpowering is wrong. If they tell you so much stuff that uh you have to abide by, it's a good sign of a cult. So I like it where a pastor can recommend things. That's no problem. I have no problem telling you, hey, sure, look at things, but don't but don't uh overpower, you have to do this. You know, that is wrong. You have to do this, unless it's very pointed out in the scripture very plain. But uh, like you mentioned earlier about my daughter standing toe to toe against me, yeah, you know, and the Bible says respect your parents. Yeah, oh no, no, it says in the Lord, that's where they in the Lord, and because I'm not in the Lord according to them, they don't have to respect me. That is taking a role different, and so therefore it becomes a cult when they take scripture like that. All the other ones, even when the father and mother, when they're uh they are old, respect them. No, they're not in the Lord, you don't have to respect them.

Prince Moon 26:19

Wow, and so uh no, no, no, no. Um well, I read the book and again his daughter, the last few pages. I mean, it was just devastated. And Rennie, really, what you've been through was a miracle for you to be on the other side, yes, yes, and to be encouraged. I mean, that last chapter really got to me, and I know it's two sides of every story, but I mean to for her to do that, and for you to hear that I have and you're the fire.

Bernie Tocholke 26:55

I have a good relationship with all seven of my children now. A good praise the Lord, maybe not perfect, but a good one. Praise the Lord. So she has come out of a long ways from it already of where she used to be.

Rebuilding Family Ties After Trauma

Prince Moon 27:08

So how did that take place? How did you re-kindle or reunite or restore that? How did you do that? How how did that come about? What were the steps?

Bernie Tocholke 27:20

I didn't, I didn't do it. God did it. God did it. There were four years. There was one little baby. I held my little baby, six pounds, baby. And uh my daughter says, You need to take your book down, you need to get rid of your website. Uh, the website I put everything on there. Um, and so you take either that down or you're not gonna see your daughter. I says, Well, those are all true stories. No, you gotta say that uh they were wrong. The book that you're talking about. They are all wrong. No, those are true stories I can say at any time. Uh you know, if you say a truth, the truth will be a year from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, what happened? I can tell you the same story over again. But if I told you a lie, how did I exactly tell it to you? I won't know, I won't remember, and a story will change. And that's what happens in the police department and stuff, too. And so I says, These are true stories. Well, you're not going to see your daughter and granddaughter. And so it was like four years, nothing. But God opened up the door again, and my daughter called me. Hey, Dad, I just need to build a relationship with you. I just want a relationship. And I want to say, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't let bygones be bygones. Everything's good. Everything okay, thank you, Dad. And she wanted to give a big narration of why she did whatever or that. I don't know, whatever. I said, No, no, no, don't no. We'll start it from now forward. And uh, it's been a good relationship. I've seen them or I see my little four-year-old daughter now, such a charm, just happy little girl, wonderful little granddaughter. And so I have a good time.

Prince Moon 29:11

So God can restore and He can bring forgiveness and restoration. Is that true?

Bernie Tocholke 29:18

Yes, yes, that is true. He can.

Forgiveness Without Reconciliation

Bernie Tocholke 29:21

It may not always happen, you know. Like my ex-wife there, do I want to be? I don't trust her, but would I like to have a friendly relationship with her? Yes, I have wanted that for it was 2002, it's 26, it's 24 years have gone by and still hate.

Prince Moon 29:39

It's been 24 years since this happened.

Bernie Tocholke 29:42

Yes.

Prince Moon 29:43

Wow.

Bernie Tocholke 29:44

Yes, and you said the new book? I printed that in 2009. Wow. Oh, yeah. I I thank you for that. And it still continues, it still continues. It's been 24 years, and yet we cannot be in the same room in the same area. You know, the ex-wife.

Prince Moon 30:03

Oh, the court gave you uh a limitation on being around her, or no, no, no, no.

Bernie Tocholke 30:08

It's only personal on her side, my ex-wife's side, she does not want to be near me. If I try, if I got her phone number and my name would come up, she would not answer it. She disconnected. I can't text her, I can't call her, and it's been that way for 24 years. Uh, if one of my children, like my one daughter, can have a baby, I cannot be there until she leaves, until the mother, the grandmother leaves, then I can come and visit the baby.

Prince Moon 30:37

So but the love your enemies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bernie Tocholke 30:43

Exactly. Pray for them.

Prince Moon 30:45

Yeah.

Closing And Next Week Tease

Prince Moon 30:46

Friends, our time is gone with Brother Bernie here about his book torn asunder. We're gonna hear more about that next week. Thank you for tuning in this evening. Bernie, thank you again for coming.