Episode 253 | Torn Asunder - Bernie Tocholke (Part III)

Church hurt can make you question everything, including God, your calling, and whether you can ever trust a church again. We sit down with author Bernie Tocholke to talk about what happens when faith gets tested by painful church situations, and how healing is still possible without pretending the damage never happened. Bernie’s book Torn Asunder is honest about the shock, grief, and even the unexpected moments of laughter that can show up in a hard story, and he shares why he wrote it for people carrying wounds they rarely say out loud. 

We also talk about the practical, spiritual work of battling bitterness. Bernie describes crying out to God with real seriousness, not polished words, and watching bitterness slowly lose its grip. Along the way, we unpack a simple “penny, nickel, dime” listening illustration that exposes how easy it is to follow a voice, get distracted, and miss what’s actually true. From there, the conversation turns to leadership failures: what accountability can look like when a minister sins, why it creates a ripple effect, and why some people backslide when their anchor was placed in a person or a system instead of Jesus Christ. 

The heart of the message is clear: don’t settle for being “churchy.” Go deep, build a real relationship with Christ, and choose the long road of forgiveness and integrity. We close with a powerful story of family reconciliation that shows how love can rebuild what pain tried to destroy. If you’ve been searching for help with church hurt, spiritual abuse recovery, or Christian healing after division, you’ll find language, perspective, and hope here. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more wounded hearts can find their way toward healing.

Visit us online: https://woundedheartswoundedchurches.com

Transcript

Welcome And The Podcast Mission

Prince Moon 0:01

Good day, listeners. We present to you our podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches. We discuss a variety of topics that are important to the church. Examples include sexual abuse, all types of addictions, religious abuse, and recovery. This platform provides counseling sessions, meaningful question and answer, and a counseling continuum. Our co-host includes Cheney Lark Technical Director. We have an impressive array of program contributors. And I'm your host. My name is Prince, founder of Antioch U Center, Father 13C Program, Licensed Counselor, now retired. So join in this exciting podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches, and be a part of the healing process.

Why Church Authors Get Overlooked

Prince Moon 0:52

Before we start, I just want to say there's a lot of excellent authors in Church of God. There really are. Also, uh Carl Kennelly, Pastor Kennelly, Revelation pamphlet that he wrote. Very, very good. Also, uh Kyle Catan uh from Panama has a book on ministry, which is a good read. Uh Tim Ellis wrote a book on his experience from prison to pray, so to speak, how God saved him. Uh, we have others too. Uh Marjorie Salee did a book, uh, her and her sister, another good book on soul winning called Each One and Beach One. But the problem is, friends, uh, it's hard to get that, those books out there in the public eye. And uh, of course, because of that, they don't get a lot of sales. And so we try to get authors on who have good books to let them know let you know about them. You can order those and they can get them out there because they got a good message with those books. We do that here, and we're just happy

Introducing Bernie And Torn Asunder

Prince Moon 2:06

to do that. And tonight we have an author, sure, friend of mine. He's an author, Bernie Tahokee. He's a father, grandfather, exhorter, loves church of God, wrote a book called Torn Asunder. Torn Asunder. I read it. Excellent read, friends. Uh it's about his burden for those who've been in difficult and hard church situations. And you'll want a copy of that. We'll discuss how to do that because it's a good read. I read through it and it's excellent. And you know, it's exciting because he runs the gamut of emotion. There's a sad part of it that it almost brings a tear out of your eye. And also, it's a shock of what happened, and it'll leave you laughing. I laughed outside in the mall. I was going shopping with my wife, and I was there reading the book, and I laughed out loud. I mean, and and it and it holds you. I read it in a day and a half, a couple days, you know. So it's an excellent read. And again, we want to find out more about the book torn asunder. So, brother Bernie, good to have you here tonight. My friend, good man for being here. And we're just happy to have him here.

Speaker 4 3:16

Yes, yes.

Buying The Book And Upcoming Audiobook

Prince Moon 3:18

All right. First third, how can we get a copy of the book torn asunder? What's the best way?

Bernie Tocholke 3:26

The easiest way is to just go on Amazon and they have it. You can also go in Barnes and Noble's or any kind of bookstore and just ask for it. But on Amazon, you can get it straight through them. Um, I also want to make an audio book, which is in the making. Uh, I'll be going to uh State Park, which has waterfalls and ripples and water effect, and I just want to put the camera on that and read the book and put it in audio form, and so you can get it for free. And uh, I, as the author, is gonna read it. I probably got emotions and certain of it, which is different than if I hired a reader to do it. So I want to get that. So, and it's gonna be on that uh let us reason together uh net. It's uh just getting started the website, but I gotta read the book first before I can put it on that. So it's a progress.

Prince Moon 4:20

Is there a link in our program here, our engineer?

Tennille McLeod 4:25

Yes, in the description box, there is an Amazon link to the book uh that Brother Bernie had authored, um, torn asunder. If you look in the description box, whether you're on our Facebook page or YouTube channel, you will find the link directly to his book. You can purchase it there on Amazon.

A Conversion Story That Still Holds

Prince Moon 4:44

And again, I read it. Good read, you will enjoy it. All right, Ken Probst. Do you know him?

Bernie Tocholke 4:51

Yes, I do. I grew up in the Gemeinde Gottes. Gemeinde Gottes is a German church God, and so the people that are in Germany right now, my Elton kommen from Deutschland. So Germany is fine fruit. So you do speak German fluently. Okay, now I gotta translate them. Okay, yeah, okay. In 49 and uh 52, mom came in 49, 1949, after the war, and dad might uh immigrated here from in 1952, and they were teenagers, they met here, married here, and so I grew up in a German Church of God, but we did not have a minister in our little group here in Minnesota, so we got um tapes sent in from Canada, Edmonton and Alberta and so forth. Uh got them in, and that's what I grew up on. But as a child, if you just listen to it on a machine, it's kind of boring for a child. Yeah, oh yeah, so yeah. So then when I was about 15 or 16, uh there was an evangelist that came in a big bus. His name was Kenneth Proz. Wow, and he came and uh after school, every evening after school, go home, quickly do the chores, get in the car and come to town and listen to this man preach. The first day, there's something that stirred inside me. Second day, something choked inside of me. By the third day, I couldn't even sing. Wow, just as I am, well, you know, I just I wouldn't be able to sing. And uh I'm an introvert, and so I didn't want to cause a big scene to go up front, so I had a plan. He has a bus, I can get whatever that word means, saved or so, whatever. That's a con sophisticated word, salvation, but uh he can explain it to me out there in this out in the bus. Well, uh, church dismissed. I I barely made it through without crying. Got out on outside, and he's standing on the outside balcony, and I asked a question and bust out crying, oh my son, he put his arm around me and led me right through the church again, right in front of everybody, exactly what he didn't want to do, right up to the altar. And uh the Bible talks about not being able to understand the words. God knows every single word, every groan, every moan, and words I cannot.

Prince Moon 7:16

Amen.

Bernie Tocholke 7:17

And uh God understood it, and there was a relief. Wow, I mean, the birds were lifted, just like Pilgrim's Progress there. Birds were lifted. I felt so clean. I went home, knelt beside my bed. God, if you ever see that I ever falter or fall and go away from you, and I cannot make heaven, please kill me now. Well, I did falter and fall, but he did not kill me that either. But I'm glad that I'm in his fold right now. Praise the Lord. I'm more stronger now than I probably ever remember, and even though I went through this nasty dark valley of uh being involved in a cult.

Prince Moon 7:58

Now, you may not you may know this and not, but I met Kim Probes 30 years ago. Uh, we had both served in Alaska. I've been there for about nine days, and he had a plane. We had a plan in the past five years to get his plane to do some work in uh Alaska there of the outlining uh islands. We had it all lined out, ready to go. He had a plane there. We were gonna get some funding together, and of course he passed. But he was a part of this program here and did an excellent job. He did pass about four years ago, sad to have that happen. But I just thank God I met him, you met him, and we met together. So thank God of that, my friend. We love you much. All right.

Bitterness, Burden, And The Listening Test

Prince Moon 8:42

Uh, you've been through a tumultuous situation, my friend, church issues. How did you battle bitterness? What did you do?

Bernie Tocholke 8:50

Well, I did go on to uh when everything was going wrong and being thrown in jail out of my control. I had nothing. Uh the first time I was in because of a lie and so forth. I did have bitterness, but just seeking God, crying out to God with a seriousness, not just words, not just lip service, but actually crying out to God, God, can you bring me through this? Can you? And and it pretty soon washed away. It slowly disappeared. And now I have a burden for the same souls that are still involved in it. Um, you know, it's it's they don't listen. Just like the little thing that I have behind here of uh the sheet here with all those ears, the elephant and uh uh the cow and the rabbit and the koala bear and all those have ears, and there's a bunch of corn cob. Well, those are ears too, and uh, but they don't listen. They don't listen, and uh they can't listen because they don't, you know, and same goes with people. Humans don't have the capacity to listen, it seems like it. You want to tell something to them, and uh they just don't understand, can't comprehend. The woman at the well, she understood it. Sure, she understood it, she right away got convinced about it, and she was one of the biggest missionaries bringing the people out to them.

Prince Moon 10:20

Amen. So Bernie, you had a you wanted to show us a a short story or a pictorial.

Bernie Tocholke 10:27

Yes, yes, okay. I'm gonna show you if you can see this. Am I high enough here? Yes, there's a penny, there's a nickel, and there's a dime. All right, okay. Johnny's mother had three children. The first one was a girl, and so she named it Penny. Then she had another girl, and this is a nickel here, so she named it Nicole, and now there's a dime here, and she this time it was a boy. What is his name? And people guess, and dime, something to do with dime. But the thing is, we did not listen to the whole story, just like the corn cobs. Let's start over. Johnny's mother's mother had three children.

Prince Moon 11:19

Three children, okay.

Bernie Tocholke 11:21

Okay, Penny, Nicole, but it's Johnny's mother, so Johnny is the dime. That's right. Has nothing to do with the dime, it's Johnny, the penny, the nickel, and the dime is a distraction, and that's the way a lot of people think because the pastor says it, it's gotta be true, and they don't even look back at the scriptures. They don't look back at the scriptures, don't look at it. Okay, the woman at the well, what did Jesus actually teach? He says, You don't have a husband. That's true. You had five husbands, all those things. But what is the most important thing that is there? The most important part is missing. There is going to be a church that will worship him in spirit and in and in truth. Sure. Is he has the does he have the right spirit and does he have the truth? There's a lot of churches out there that don't have that, and they think they are it, they are the one, they have the sign on the door above their door that this is it, and it's not always the same thing. It's like the dime and the cole and penny and Johnny's mother. Don't listen to the whole thing. In spirit and in truth, there is a church that is live and well. Is it uh visible? Oh, yes, it's visible worldwide. Do you know each one that there's uh of the child of God? No, you don't, but Christ knows, Christ knows the heart, and so the bitterness can dissipate if you work at it and uh allow Christ to do the cleansing within you.

Prince Moon 13:02

Because there's a lot of people that have gotten bitter when splits occur, when division occurs, and that's how we bring these guys on, like Bernie here, because he's been through the shock for the past what 24 years? And yet he's out here writing, I think your third book down, fourth book, third book. He's doing podcasts, doing programs, doing charts, and he's back into things now, going to church services. And so, friends, if you've been hurt, you can get healed. If you've hurt someone, you can get forgiveness. Uh, Brother Bernie, want your opinion

When Ministers Sin And People Stumble

Prince Moon 13:38

here. Uh if a minister sins, what should he do?

Bernie Tocholke 13:45

Well, uh the Bible distinguishes uh in different types of sin. Oh, sin's a sin. No, not really. But the you know, there's some have sinned a grievous sin. So there's a distinctive um he that knoweth to do good and doeth a not, to him it is sin. Um well I should go over to the neighbor, he just lost his wife, I should take him a pie there. And the next day I find out he's dead. Well, did I sin? I knew to do good, but I didn't do it, you know, and so there's there's levels, depending on what the pastor did. If he has an affair or carousing or preached a terrible, misled false doctrine that is way off way off the course, he should be sitting down. He could he be saved, yes, he could be saved again, but uh he he shouldn't be a minister as far as I'm concerned. So yeah, if he sins, if he uh you know, just a minor harsh tone or something, no, that's uh it's forgivenable, you know. So I I I see I see levels of sin. I see levels of sin. And uh sometimes it's just uh a quick harsh word is a whole lot different than uh the cities that were destroyed, Sodom Gomorrah. That was grievous.

Prince Moon 15:16

So and of course, when a minister sins, he the influence expands much more than individual, doesn't it? It's a ripple effect.

Bernie Tocholke 15:26

Yeah it goes to the whole congregation, everybody's affected by it.

Prince Moon 15:31

Yeah, we're not and I and we've seen when a pastor sends some other folks end up backsliding too. What's the reason for that? Why do people backslide when the minister backslides?

Bernie Tocholke 16:50

Because where is their anchor? Is the anchor in the pastor? Is the anchor in the building that they worship in? Or is the anchor in Jesus Christ? Jesus will never let them go.

Prince Moon 17:03

Amen.

Bernie Tocholke 17:04

If they had a true relationship, uh, where did I just hear that? Uh just recently, a man came up to a minister and uh started talking about his daughter, raised her up, raised her up, raised her up, and all of a sudden she became an adult and she went off. And a pastor that was listening to this thought, oh no, he's probably gonna ask the question, what did I do wrong? Instead, he says, I turked taught her how to be churchy, but I did not teach her how to be a Christian. Wow.

Prince Moon 17:40

So you have people that know the lingo, dress the dress standard, know uh once again become, but have not had experience in God. That's serious.

Bernie Tocholke 17:54

Yeah.

Prince Moon 17:56

So so they know the that they've been they have not been transformed, really.

Bernie Tocholke 18:03

True, true, or a very shallow experience which didn't go deep. Wow. It's like uh it's it's I don't know, it's like a little child crawling into the bunk bed and just barely on the edge, and he falls out of the bunk bed. Well, he didn't get in deep enough, right? If he goes way to the up against the wall, he won't fall out of the bed, right? But if you live right on the edge, the edge of salvation, right on the edge of Christianity, right on the edge, just just do what I have to do, it's it's it's not gonna work. As soon as the first waves come. Well, what does James talk about? Uh let us not be double-minded in our ways, double-minded man stable. Let not man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord. A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. You know, let the brother of low degrees rejoice and that he's exalted, but the rich and that he's made low, and so forth. So um it's it's it's anchorness get locked into Christ uh in Jesus Christ, that's where it's at. And if it doesn't measure up with the leaders that I'm doing, get different leaders or overlook it, overlook it. How serious is it? You know, if they believe that uh everybody should be in you know in a suit, okay. Sometimes you just comply. If they say no, no, no, everybody has to be modest and be in a sweater, okay. Just comply. But if they have something where you gotta deal with them in such a strong way that it it's just opposing, well, you don't do it.

Prince Moon 19:46

A any comments from our listeners?

Tennille McLeod 19:48

No, not at the moment.

Prince Moon 19:49

Friends, in our last few moments, you can text in while we have time tonight with Brother Bernie, 18665-383664.

Practical Steps Toward Healing

Prince Moon 19:58

Ernie, you're talking to someone, uh Bernie, who's gotten bitter or uh maybe been wounded greatly in a certain church or a certain situation. Any advice to them?

Bernie Tocholke 20:12

Okay. First of all, what was it that they got offended so hard? What was it that they put their trust in the whole organization? Put their trust in it and then something went wrong. Um get back to the basics. I just get back to the basics. Where it is at. And uh, did I do everything just right too? You know, did I was I misled somewhere? Was I, you know, uh do you really want to go down the road and let the enemy take advantage of you and lose out at the end? You know, I mean, people will always go uh fear of loss or desire for gain. It's either heaven or hell, it's it's the win and the lose. You know, it's uh some people get salvation just for the fire insurance, and that that's poor. That's poor. You need more than that, and so learn to love Christ for what he's done. Look at counted the blessings. I had one person that was always gloomy. We called her ee or you know, like uh we need a poo there, ee or there's not a cloud in the sky, but it's going to rain, you know. Everything is poor. Did you count your blessing? Yeah, I went ahead and I said, You got a husband, is he worth a nickel? I had a whole handful of coins. Is he worth you have a car? Isn't that worth 10 cents? And I put that down. And this is a quarter, and I started naming off all the blessings she has, and I just left the coins there on the table, and I walked out the door, left her. My sister walked into her just uh half an hour later, and she was still looking at the coins.

Prince Moon 21:59

So I hope it set in. I think it did. Well, there you mentioned was mentioned earlier, you said, was I, was I? And it's important for us to know where we were during that time, spiritual in our spiritual. Yes, were we lacking in certain areas? Maybe we would not want to forgive quickly, but all that ties into those situations, doesn't it?

Bernie Tocholke 22:23

Yes. If I would said, did you, did you, did you, then important, then appreciate you, right? Turn it inward, was I right is a whole lot more compassionate. Did I do the right things? It's true, you know, that that's a whole lot more, a lot stronger communication. So put myself on a block. So I love that.

Prince Moon 22:46

I do too. I do too. Friends, our time is about gone, but these are very important subjects here tonight to help us to maintain unity. Because if we don't discuss these things and these issues, it'll be tough to solve them. I I I applaud you what you just said. Turning in was I implied. Place was I in God's will. Was I forgiving and loving? That's so, so important. Because Deli, you're there right now. You're in the place where you're forgiving. Tell me a little bit about your family, how they're getting back together

Rebuilding Family After Deep Wounds

Prince Moon 23:18

with your daughter, etc.

Bernie Tocholke 23:20

Oh, that was great. That was great. There was a time she hated that book, torn asunder in the jaws of the cult. I just put in true stories. Everything is true. Anyone can approach to me and I can tell the same story over and over and over again because I experienced it. I did not make it up. And she says, You either got to take the book down and say it's all crooked, or you're not going to see your granddaughter. She was a baby. Four years later, I get a text and you're my daughter. Dad, can we talk? Well, yeah, absolutely. I I text yes. Instead, I just press the call button too. Yes. Well, Dad, I'm uh I no, don't, don't, don't, no, we don't need to apologize and go and all that dirt and stuff like that. Let's just build a relationship just from now on. Just this is new, this is fresh. And oh, I had a good time.

Prince Moon 24:13

Yeah.

Bernie Tocholke 24:14

Nice, beautiful old granddaughter, four years old, make up for lost time. We met at the Mall of America, we met at a restaurant, we met at a you know, like a Burger King at McDonald's that had a big ballpark there. And oh, she's fun. That's enjoyable. And my daughter is so nice, and just forget about the past. I mean, that's right. What's wrong is wrong. Just forget, you know, just you don't need apologies. It's just just take it from there on out. Just love them, just love them for who they are. And for her to have a nerve to contact me like that and says, Dad, I I need to build a relationship with you. She is precious in my mind. That just removes all all the the bitterness away. If there was anything left, it just just hug and cuddle them. I mean, that's my children.

Tennille McLeod 25:05

That's right.

Prince Moon 25:06

Anyway, that's why we're here. We want to we want you to experience reconciliation with the saints, with the ministry, with your friends, with the that's why we're here to to to induce these things. Ronnie, I saw what I mentioned your daughter, you just put a smile on your face, and that let us know this is a beautiful situation. From you, my friend. Well, first of all, any last words you want to give tonight to anyone listening? Those are in Albania, Macedonia, uh the Wawiner, Georgia. Any last minute words tonight from you? Germany?

Bernie Tocholke 25:37

Uh, I have seven precious children, and I just root for them all. And I'm sure you have a family too out there. Whoever you are, you have family, you have loved ones, you have yourself. Yeah, enjoy yourself, love yourself enough to look out for your soul for eternity. Please do that. Seek God, seek and enjoy eternity. So I love you all. If we don't see you here, there, or over there, we'll see you up there in heaven. So please be strong. Anchor in Christ.

Prince Moon 26:14

And before we go, again the book Torn Asunder. How can we get a copy of it?

Final Encouragement And How To Connect

Bernie Tocholke 26:21

Torn Asunder, the jaws of a cult. Uh you go on Amazon is the easiest way. Uh, you can go to Barnes and Nobles or ask for it by name, but uh, if you just type it into Amazon, it's already there. So that's the easiest route. Uh, and I do intend to make uh an audiobook, and then then you could just download it for free. So then you can listen to it wherever. I'll probably put it on the website, let us reason together.net. So thank you.

Prince Moon 26:56

Beautiful, my friend. Thank you so much, brother Bernie to our engineer. Thank you so much. Those who are listening, you can text in even tonight. If you have questions, we can give them Tim or those of them. Thank you for listening tonight. May the Lord bless you. Have a good night. Thank you.