Episode 257 | Difficulties in Reconciliation - James DeGraffenried (Part II)

Church hurt is not just painful, it can be spiritually disorienting. We sit down with Brother James DeGraffenreid, a longtime Church of God minister focused on reaching people who have been wounded, and we name the problem many listeners have lived through: when pastors and leaders stop serving and start ruling, division follows and real people get crushed under it. We dig into why power is hard to handle, how “follow the pastor” can replace “follow Jesus,” and why that shift can happen in ordinary churches as well as overtly controlling groups. 

From there, we move into the practical heart of healing: reconciliation and forgiveness. We read and reflect on Jesus’ instructions about making things right with a brother before worship, and we take seriously the warning that unforgiveness blocks our own forgiveness. That leads to a bigger question with real-world consequences: why do churches split so often? We connect the dots between offense, bitterness, a lack of charity, and the slow breakdown of unity, while still holding out hope that God can restore what people have damaged. 

We also speak directly to anyone who feels discouraged or spiritually distant after being hurt. The encouragement is simple and weighty: remember what Christ has done, return to prayer when the Holy Spirit draws you, ask God to forgive you, and ask Him to help you forgive others. If you care about spiritual abuse recovery, Christian discipleship, church unity, and forgiveness in the Bible, this conversation will meet you where you are. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review with one takeaway you want to live out this week.

Visit us online: https://woundedheartswoundedchurches.com

Transcript

Welcome And Where To Connect

Dr. Jamie Mitchell 0:10

For the American Pastor's Network and one of the host for Stand In The Gap Today radio program with a listening audience of two million people. In all of my travels and encounters I know of no other program.

Prince Moon 1:03

My name is Moon, your Host on Wounded Hearts Wounded Churches. Glad you're here today. But we got a friend of mine who I've enjoyed these past couple of Thursdays. His brother's name is Brother James DeGraffenried. Minister of the Church of God for over 30 years. He's active on the internet, has outreach, planting a church there in Tennessee, which is exciting, I'm sure. And he works uh to try to reach people who've been wounded. He's been through that. He knows what it's all about. And here he is, encouraged tonight, going forth, uh, sharing giving away Bibles to let us know that if you've been wounded, there's help because it's helped him and he's doing pretty well, in my opinion. So that's why here tonight, let us know that he can make it and you can too. But give him a hand for being here, Brother DeGraffenried. Good to have you again here, my friend. And how can we contact you?

James DeGraffenreid 2:06

Brother Moon, I administer two pages on Facebook. Uh I haven't mentioned this before, but here um some months ago I started a page, Lift Him Up. It's uh entirely uh page about Jesus and the Gospel of Christ uh and salvation. It's where people can share their testimony of how God saved them. It's uh a page that uh shares the gospel to help someone understand what they need to do to receive Christ. Uh I administer that. Lift him up. If you find uh an orange cross uh and the scripture, and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me. Uh that's that's the lift him up uh Facebook page that I administer. I also administer on Facebook C-O-G-R Chronicles, exposing the shadows. This page was uh developed by Brother Lee Atma uh to expose the errors of the Church of God Restoration Cult. And uh the Lord is doing a mighty work to tear this cult apart and to to break it down and to uh bring it down, brother. Uh, we we're not going to get into much of that tonight, but we can do it at a later time. But God is the one who's doing it, it's not man. These these these cult leaders have have uh been exposed, uh, and the Lord is trying to help the souls in there to not be hurt, and that's again why we're here tonight. Um I also administer with Bernie Tahoke on uh YouTube, on uh a website, and Facebook, Let Us Reason Together. And again, there's a lot of reasons together, let us reason together. Uh, it this this page has a waterfall uh over the header, and that's how you can define it or or find it. Um but brother, we're trying to reach out as as we are here on this podcast, trying to avail ourselves to everyone who would want to uh reach out to us if they have a question or would want to talk. Uh we we want our days to count and to be able to be a blessing and a help as the Lord helps us. Uh, we're so thankful for this podcast. I believe now I can say they can find me here on this podcast, brother.

Prince Moon 4:56

That's true. That's true. Amen. I'm all for that. I'm all for that.

Pastoral Power And Real Accountability

Prince Moon 5:00

But James, uh the the comment came in pastors cause division because of their influence, and there'll be blood on the pastor's hands. What's your take on that?

James DeGraffenreid 5:13

That's that's true, brother. Uh pastors are well, in most cases, brother Moon, the sad reality is it's like power. Without the help of the of our father, without the help of the Holy Spirit, most men cannot handle power.

Prince Moon 5:43

Wow, wow, okay.

James DeGraffenreid 5:44

And and pastors many times develop a complex where uh instead of being a servant, as Christ gave us the example to serve, they become a ruler. Uh it becomes man rule. The pastor becomes the head instead of Christ being the head. And that's the danger, brother. And that's you know, asking about these different pastors who would cause harm or hurt. That's that's how they do it. Because in many cases, brother Moon, they require their people to put their faith and their trust in what they have to say. They don't encourage their flock to read the word and to have that close relationship with Jesus. They don't have a shepherd's heart, brother Moon, to feed the flock and to help the flock to grow in grace and to draw closer to Christ. Many times they they they want the people to be uh uh what would you say, uh subservient or yeah, subservient and they want them to be loyal to them.

Prince Moon 7:03

Okay.

James DeGraffenreid 7:04

It's sad, sad, brother Moon, but we took we don't beat around the bush here. You know that.

Prince Moon 7:09

Amen.

James DeGraffenreid 7:10

We we we share we share the truth as we are able to understand the truth. Uh but yes, yes, pastors who cause great harm, brother, they will be held accountable for that.

Prince Moon 7:24

True.

James DeGraffenreid 7:25

Uh we've shared scriptures in the past week, even last week we shared scriptures uh about what the Bible says about this. Um to cause someone to lose out with the Lord, brother. Listen, that's serious. It is their blood, the blood of those dear ones will be held against that pastor's uh record.

Stop Following Men Follow Jesus

Prince Moon 7:53

James, the next uh comment that came in the greater solution to all the problem is for people to stop following man. Is that true?

James DeGraffenreid 8:05

Amen. Yes, brother, that's true. Uh that's the problem, brother, today. In the majority of places that call themselves church, the sad reality is, dear brother Moon, the people are not encouraged to follow Jesus. They're encouraged to be a part of whatever fellowship it is and to follow what the pastor says. Uh, whatever, you know, it doesn't it doesn't look brother moon, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a cult. There are many places that that are uh gathering as a church, and the people there are following whatever the pastor is preaching. Uh it couldn't it doesn't necessarily have to be a cult, brother Moon, in order for people to be heard. Anytime any time that a pastor does not feed the church, feed the feed the flock with the sincere gospel truth of the of Christ. We should hear the gospel every every Sunday, brother Moon. We should hear the gospel every Sunday, and I say that because we should be bringing lost souls to congregations and bringing them to meetings, brother, to hear the gospel.

Prince Moon 9:34

Amen.

James DeGraffenreid 9:35

Brother, that's why we that's why God brought that's why God built his church. Whenever Jesus came, he lived, he died, he rose again, he ascended into heaven, he gave the Holy Spirit to dwell in the hearts of the believers. And brother Moon, the our only purpose here in this world is to help souls to be saved. Amen.

Prince Moon 10:01

Amen.

James DeGraffenreid 10:02

And and as as as if a congregation is not doing that, brother, it's just a social club, it's just it's an entertainment center.

Prince Moon 10:13

Um they so they should have a uh a desire to go out and reach people. Is that what you're saying?

James DeGraffenreid 10:20

Amen. And to bring them in. And the past the pastor should have a message every week that shares the gospel, brother. Isn't that what the Bible is from cover to cover? Yes, it's about Christ, it's about the plan of salvation that God He ordained it from the foundation of the world, Brother Moon. He knew God knew that we would need a savior, and he he made a plan. It's all throughout the old testament, the types, the shadows, uh all that God did then pointed to a savior who would come and who would save souls. Brother, it's not complicated.

Why The Gospel Is Not Complicated

Prince Moon 11:10

My next question is it complicated to serve Christ?

James DeGraffenreid 11:16

It's not complicated, dear brother, to follow Jesus and to obey the Lord. When someone comes to the Lord, Jesus said, If come to me, all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I'm meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For a child of God to follow Jesus is not complicated, brother. Man complicates salvation, man complicates the gospel, man makes excuses for the simple truth of God's word. Man tries to find ways to get around the simple truth of the gospel of Christ, and that's what becomes complicated, Brother Moon. It's not following Jesus. Now, Jesus said, Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads unto death, and many there be that go in thereat. He said, Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it. Now, brother, there's more to being saved than just raising your hand and saying the sinner's prayer.

Prince Moon 12:42

It's true, yeah.

James DeGraffenreid 12:44

Brother, we need as as ministers of the gospel of Christ Jesus, we need to be preaching the gospel that Jesus preached. Amen. And letting that word do the work that God said. God says, My word won't return unto me void.

Prince Moon 13:03

Yes, it will accomplish it.

James DeGraffenreid 13:05

We will accomplish that which I send it forth to do.

Prince Moon 13:08

Good, good. Brother James, we gotta take a break. We'll be right back. Friends, don't leave. The best is yet to come. A quick break, and we'll be right back. And we're back, Brother James, the graph and read, Minister Church of God for 30 years plus, planning a church there in Tennessee,

Reconciliation And Leaders Stepping Down

Prince Moon 14:30

and he's reaching out to people who have been wounded or who have hurt people, and to love them and help them to stay on track with God. Brother James, reconciliation only comes first by admitting wrong, like Daniel did. Those people you mentioned earlier, are they admitting that they were wrong, or how was that going thus far?

James DeGraffenreid 14:52

It's my understanding, Brother Moon, that the ones who were the apostles, the chief apostles, the 12 apostles under them, or 10 or 12, 11, I don't know. They've they've had a number of different ones. Uh I don't know that any of them have uh well, no, I take that back. I know of one apostle who has uh come out and it seems given a tr a true apology and taken responsibility. Uh there have been a few ministers who have uh taken responsibility. But the chief apostles, the chief apostles, uh they're hiding.

Prince Moon 15:33

And it's we don't we don't mention names or places, but I've heard from sources that some people have resigned their positions. Is that true? It is true.

James DeGraffenreid 15:45

Wow, the chief apostle of the COGR has resigned. Two of the apostles under him have resigned. Uh, and it's not over, uh, brother Moon. We've been praying for this for years, and we see God moving. Uh, we see him moving in a powerful way. It's not man. Uh man couldn't do it. God is making a fast work of this. Man couldn't have done it like the Lord has. Brother, before we get off of here tonight, I want to share the burden on my heart.

Prince Moon 16:19

All right.

James DeGraffenreid 16:20

With with you. Last week, last week we talked about reconciliation, yes, which is part of what this genre is for this podcast.

Prince Moon 16:31

Yes.

James DeGraffenreid 16:32

I want to read, I want to read briefly once more from and I want to correct myself. Last week I said I was reading from Daniel Webster's

Jesus On Making Things Right

James DeGraffenreid 16:43

uh dictionary, brother. It was brother Noah Webster, not brother.

Prince Moon 16:49

I want to I didn't catch that.

James DeGraffenreid 16:54

I want to correct myself, brother. I was wrong. Brother Noah, brother. That's right. It's a big difference, there isn't it between Daniel Webster debated uh Abraham Lincoln, I believe. I could be wrong about I could be wrong about that too. But anyway, uh Noah Webster said reconcile affiliate anew, to call back into union and friendship the affections which have been alienated, amen, to restore to friendship or favor after estrangement, to reconcile men or parties that have been at variance. Now, we also read from Matthew 5.

Prince Moon 17:42

What James, that's what we're after here, and I say we us as a group, as a church, what he just read, we're after that. We want to maintain unity and reconciliation. That's so important. So please, brother James, read on, please, if you would.

James DeGraffenreid 18:02

We read in Matthew 5, where Brother Noah Webster referenced in his definition, we read in Matthew chapter 5, verse verses 33, 23, and 24. Therefore, Jesus said, Therefore, if thou be bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way. First be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. So we spoke about this last week, brother, about how when someone offends, and uh how someone causes harm or hurts someone in the church. Now we're talking about children of God, brother. This does not this doesn't work in the world. We're talking about brothers in Christ. This is what Jesus said to do. If if we remember that we've wronged someone, and I would encourage everyone listening to this podcast, I would encourage everyone to be thoughtful and prayerful and sensitive to the dealings of the Holy Spirit and search search your heart and see if the Lord would lay on your heart something that you might have done to someone to be hurt, to be a hurt to them or or to offense. And I would encourage you to do what Jesus said to do here. Now let's read in Mark Mark's Gospel, chapter 11, verse 25 and 26. This is Jesus again. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any, that your father also, which is in heaven, may forgive your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Prince Moon 20:11

Do you believe that? Do we believe that, brother James? Do we honestly believe that?

James DeGraffenreid 20:16

We better believe it, brother Moon. Okay. We had better believe it. And there again, we're talking about the church, brother. We're talking about our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Prince Moon 20:29

So if I don't forgive brother popcorn, will I go to heaven?

James DeGraffenreid 20:35

No, you won't.

Prince Moon 20:36

All right, okay. I agree.

James DeGraffenreid 20:38

Our only hope, our only hope, our only hope, dear brother, I agree. Is is to receive the gospel of Christ.

Prince Moon 20:46

Yes.

James DeGraffenreid 20:47

And to let our only hope is for his blood to be covering us, dear brother. Now that's something we can talk about later. We don't have time about that tonight. But I want to finish with this scripture, brother. Okay. In 1 Peter 4 17. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God.

Forgiveness And Why Splits Happen

James DeGraffenreid 21:16

And if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Now, brother, this is serious business what we're talking about, brother.

Prince Moon 21:29

It is very serious, very serious.

James DeGraffenreid 21:31

It is we we as the church, now let's just get right down to it, dear brother. Why do you think there are so many splits?

Prince Moon 21:42

Oh, oh wow. What a question. What a question.

James DeGraffenreid 21:46

It's because it's because Christians aren't doing what we've just what we've just brought out tonight, brother. That's the only answer we can give.

Prince Moon 21:55

Simple, it's a simple answer.

Tennille McLeod 21:57

So look, if you don't mind me asking, Brother James, are you referring that a lack of the fact that there's not much reconciliation is a lack of forgiveness?

Prince Moon 22:08

Very good.

James DeGraffenreid 22:09

Well, I'm sure that plays a part, Sister Tadil. With what I understand the words telling us, though, Jesus, it doesn't matter if somebody ever comes to reconcile or not, we are we are told to forgive them. And when we forgive them, we give we give whatever it was that they hurt us or offended us, whatever we have to forgive, we give that to the Lord, and we don't carry it anymore. And we don't do there, amen. Amen. Now, do we forget? No, I don't believe we forget, but we don't hold it against the person anymore, in the same way that God does not hold our past against us. How do you think that this old man can be so bold to share the good things of the gospel of Jesus? It's not because of me, it's not because Because of anything I've done, it's in spite of what I did, but because of what Jesus did, what he did for me and what he will do for everyone who will turn to him and seek him and ask him to save them. Brother, brother uh moon, you ask, is it complicated?

Prince Moon 23:31

Yes.

James DeGraffenreid 23:31

No, no, brother Moon, it's not complicated. We just have to come to the Lord in his way. We have to believe, brother. We have to we have to receive what Jesus did on Calvary's tree and let him save us. We have to seek the Holy Spirit and ask God's Spirit to dwell within us. There again, we can get into all this later. We can't we don't have time tonight, but brother Moon, it's simple. It's simple, brother Moon. What does the word say? It's not God's will that any perish.

Prince Moon 24:15

Yes, that's true. That's true.

James DeGraffenreid 24:17

It's not his will that anyone perish.

Prince Moon 24:19

Anyone, anyone.

James DeGraffenreid 24:23

But God's not going to drive anyone, he's not gonna force anyone, he's not going to do more than he's already done, brother Moon. Christ paid the price. That's right. The word of God says there's no other name given among men whereby we must be saved. You can throw all of the other religions, whatever you want to call it, Muslim, Buddhist, uh, Confucius, whatever you want to call it, throw them all away, brother. There's only one name given among men whereby we must be saved, and that's Christ Jesus.

Prince Moon 25:08

Any last minute ideas you might have for someone who's discouraged, someone maybe who've wounded people or who've been wounded, maybe they're just given up. Maybe a young person who just got tired of the this and that. What advice do you give to them?

James DeGraffenreid 25:29

Yeah, I want to speak with the help of the Lord to someone who's been saved, someone who has known the good things of God, someone who has tasted of Christ and the fellowship of his suffering in what he did for you on Calvary. Someone who truly knows that they were saved. Maybe you've been discouraged, maybe someone has hurt you, maybe someone has offended you, maybe I don't know what might have happened. Listen, this world is no friend of grace. Amen. Amen. The devil, the devil has so many plans and so many ways that he tries to get in and to hurt and to hinder and to cause someone to become discouraged and sometimes even lose out. But I would encourage the one who knows

Hope For The Discouraged Believer

James DeGraffenreid 26:21

they've they've knows the love of Christ, knows that they've been saved in the past. I want to encourage you, you remember what Jesus did for you. You uh ask the Lord Jesus to help you to find that close place with Him again. Amen. You get down on your knees when the Holy Spirit would draw you to the Lord, and you pray, and you ask the Lord Jesus to forgive you for whatever it was. Because, see, here's the deal, brother Mood. For someone to let some offense cause them to turn away from Christ, see that that's what they have to acknowledge before the Lord.

Prince Moon 27:08

True.

James DeGraffenreid 27:10

Not what caused them to do it, but but if they let something cause them to be hindered or hurt, and they've they've lost that close place with Jesus, they have to confess that and ask the Lord to help them to forgive, and to ask the Lord to help them to be saved, and to be under his blood again, brother. Uh, that's what I would encourage someone to do. Now I'm speaking expressly to someone. Yes, maybe maybe maybe you haven't lost out. Maybe maybe the enemy is trying real hard to hold something over your head about what someone did to you or what someone you know didn't do. I want to encourage you, you remember what Jesus has done for you. Don't let the devil get you so caught up in what man is doing, amen. Cause you to lose out with your close relationship.

Prince Moon 28:05

Jesus, amen, amen.

James DeGraffenreid 28:07

That's all I have tonight, dear brother.

Prince Moon 28:09

Amen. Well, Brother James, I I appreciate you so much because you've been through a whole lot, religious situations, and you don't spend time in blaming others, you're recovered, and that is beautiful. Uh, the question that came in earlier about the influence of pastors that is true, it can cause division, but some people are vulnerable and at risk for the enemy at times, because they've mentioned that they're at risk for being wounded or provoked, uh, and that exposes them to the enemy's attack. Uh, quick example if I don't get rest, keep my hands washed and drink liquids, I will get sick. So I can prevent the cold by washing my hands, liquid drinking water, and getting rest. And the same thing, uh, spiritually, friends, we want to be have preventative spirituality where if you're lacking discernment, if your consecration is not where it should be, if you're lacking in charity, which of course means enduring offenses and hardships, and if you're not doing those things, you could be susceptible to division or strife. You are you are enabling yourself to be exposed to the enemy's

Preventative Spirituality Against Division

Prince Moon 29:39

attack. So help us, we pray that we can be preventative methods, so if something does happen, we're not just be swept away or destroyed, but we can weather the storm by having some discernment, like Brother James mentioned, personal consecration, our prayer, our fasting, and also having the love of God in our hearts to where we can endure some things. Charity means suffering long. What do you mean? Enduring hardship and offenses patiently. And Brother James, had they done that when I was a child in Detroit, major split, they split three ways. I was there, family was there. I was a young guy then, but had they done those things and had been in a place to work through that, it would have been all right. We went from 600 people down to about 35. Devastating.

James DeGraffenreid 30:39

It's happened time and time again, Brother Moon.

Prince Moon 30:42

It has, it has. So we want to be preventative. So if things do come, we don't just tear us apart, saints of God and friends. Brother James, thank you tonight. Always informative. Yes, we appreciate you so very much, but I think you know that we love you much. And again, how can we contact you to discuss these things? Your content, what can we do?

James DeGraffenreid 31:08

My personal Facebook is my name, James Rollins, D. Graffin Reed. Uh, I administer uh Facebook page, lift him up with the with the orange cross at the header. I administer Facebook C O G R Chronicles, Exposing the Shadows. Uh, you can find me there. I I help administer with Brother Bernie Tahoke, Let Us Reason Together on uh YouTube, Facebook, and we're developing a website. So, and on this podcast, dear brother, on our podcast here of Word.

Prince Moon 31:52

I like that our, yeah. I like that.

James DeGraffenreid 31:56

Amen. So, brother, we've we prayed the Lord would help us tonight. We trust the Lord has helped us to share the good things of the gospel of Jesus. We want to lift him up. Um, you know, brother Moon, I share this in closing. Um, the closer we get to Jesus, yes, the enemy can't

Final Resources And Closing Appeal

James DeGraffenreid 32:19

even hurt us. The enemy can't even have a chance to hurt us, brother.

Prince Moon 32:23

Touch us not, touch us not.

James DeGraffenreid 32:26

Amen. The wicked one touches us not. The Lord is our saying. Can somebody be forgiven right now? Amen, brother. Amen. If if the Lord is dealing with someone in the in listening to this podcast, if the Holy Spirit is close and and you feel the Lord drawing you to him, I want to share with you, Jesus loves you. He he came, he lived, he died, he was the perfect lamb that was slain to take your place, and all he asks of you is to receive him.

Prince Moon 33:01

But but what if I'm bitter? Can Christ forgive my bitterness?

James DeGraffenreid 33:06

Yes, brother, he can take that away. He can take it away, brother. The Bible says, though our sins be as scarlet, they'll be as white as snow.

Prince Moon 33:15

How about if I've hurt someone? Will God forgive that tonight, right now?

James DeGraffenreid 33:20

Yes, he will, brother. He will. He'll forgive you, and he'll help you forgive too.

Prince Moon 33:26

Brother James, does God love us? Does he love all of us or just some of us?

James DeGraffenreid 33:31

Brother, he loves everyone. It's not his will. It's not his will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, brother. It's not God that that doesn't love, brother. It's man. And without God, brother, the truth of the matter is, with God, we truly can't know how to love.

Prince Moon 33:51

That's true. That's true. That's true. Because God is loving. He is love.

Tennille McLeod 33:56

That's right.

Prince Moon 33:57

All right. So again, Brother James, thank you tonight for coming on to our director, engineer. Thank you for helping us out in this podcast. And those who heard tonight, may the Lord bless you. See you next week. Have a good day. Goodbye.