Episode 261 | Family Unity After Dis-Unity (Part I)

“We are it.” Three words that can sound confident from a pulpit and feel like a cage in the pew. Tonight we dig into how that mindset turns a church name, a leader, or a rulebook into an idol and how it quietly rewrites the gospel into “Jesus plus our group.” We talk about the difference between a man built church with layers of control and the Church Jesus builds, the one made up of every blood washed believer whose name is recorded in Heaven, not on a man made roll. 

We connect the dots between spiritual abuse, twisted Scripture taken out of context, and the pressure to prove you belong by complying with extra rules. We also ground the conversation in Jesus’ words to the woman at the well: true worship is not locked to a location, a denomination, or a brand, but happens in spirit and truth. If you’ve ever felt pushed out, labeled “Babylon,” or told your salvation was “incomplete” without joining a specific group, you’ll hear language for what happened and a clearer picture of what biblical unity actually looks like. 

We end with the hard, practical work of healing: humility from the one who harmed, forgiveness from the one harmed, and the kind of reconciliation that looks like honesty and even restitution, not “forgive and forget” pressure. If church hurt has made you wary of faith communities, this conversation offers a path back to Jesus without surrendering your conscience to man made control. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review telling us what unity should look like in real life.

Visit us online: https://woundedheartswoundedchurches.com

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

Prince Moon 1:04

Tonight, we got some very good as you guys. And of course, the first one we have is our co-host for tonight, James DeGiffreed. Good to have him here. He's a Ministry Church of God minister, father, husband, grandfather, and he has some exciting content on the YouTube at this time. Planning a church there in the state of Tennessee. And you know, he has an extensive burden for those who have been uh displaced or have been disenfranchised in God's church. Also, we have Dan Anderson. He's in transient at this point, and uh he has a lot of uh content uh that he's created. He does musician work from Indiana area, an exciting program called Unshackled Cults and False Religions. He's on YouTube, TikTok, etc. etc. Done a lot of work in that area that has him tonight, later on in Transit, I believe. But again, we're glad you're here. And also, Bernie Chahoke is also with us tonight. He's father, grandfather, husband, church of God for years and years and years, and he's an accomplished author. The book we uh highlighted uh earlier in the year was called Torn Asunder. It's an excellent read. I read the book in a day and a half, two days, and it goes through the gambit uh uh of excitement. Uh it stirs up and it makes you laugh out loud. It's a good read. So to get the book, let us know. We'll be glad to accommodate you. In fact, tonight you can text in 1866-538-3664. You can also call our offices. We have two numbers. First number is 478-2839093. Second number is 478-784-7600. Also, you can email us at Wounded Hearts and Wounded Churches. Email address is R-E-E, E-E-C-H-O-N-E-A-O-L.com. So again, glad you're here with us tonight. Also, our engineer Tatia McClellos from the Atlanta area. She does our tech part of this podcast and all the artwork she does also, too. Founder of Arise Magazine. And my name is Prince Licensed Counselor, founder Antioch Youth Center, retired. So we're glad. So tonight we're going to be on Brother Bernie. He has some pictorials for us, and we want to uh focus on William Fortnite dealing with this subject of unity and hurt in God's church. Brother Bernie, if you would please.

Man Made Church Versus God’s Church

Bernie Tocholke 3:54

Yes. Uh I want to start with a vision that I had probably about 30 years ago. It costed me a lot. It tore my family apart. It tore my marriage apart. I spent a three month, then another three months, then another six months in jail because of it all. Um I was framed with something that I couldn't control. But I want to share with you the vision of what I had for the church. You look at a man church, a church that man builds. Man will build a church that has structure. Has structure, has presidents, has vice presidents or whatever, pastors and assistant pastors, board members, deacons, whatever, uh uh Bible study characters, whatever, but there's a structure level. Another thing that they have is a homage to individuals. I worship the man, okay. In uh in Acts, it talks about are you Paul, are you Apollos, or are you Cephas? You know, you're looking for structure. You know, no, follow Christ. Christ is the one that you follow, okay. Another thing that the churches will come in is with twisted scripture, which is contrary to the Bible, but they will pull out scriptures and take it out of context. Another thing they have, we are it. You know, there's so many churches that we are it. I came out of the church of God restoration and they were it. Everybody needed to come out, everybody else was Babylon. Okay, uh, you got to worship here, uh, at their place. Another thing, the it doesn't matter what church of the 666 churches are out there. I mean, I don't want to start naming them, but even Church of God, if they have the title on it, it's becoming an idol for them. Now, when um the woman at the well, when Jesus came to them, they uh he he didn't say you gotta worship here or worship there in the mountain or or uh at Jerusalem or at this certain place. He says you worship the spirit and the truth. Now, if this podcast is going out in some countries where you get murdered, where you get uh killed, martyred, martyred for uh believing Jesus Christ, you are part of this church, this one, not this one. And well, what does a church of God? You know, how does it compare with this? It might be like this. Some of the people in this area are part of the God's church, they're in the church of God, but in the church of God, they the man's church, there might be some that are not in this church, and so therefore, it doesn't matter where the flavor is, if it's down in South America, out in the jungle, out in Amazon or in Africa or in Antarctica or up in the Arctic Circle, it doesn't matter if they know Jesus Christ and have accepted him as a savior, they are part of this church. That's church is a name that they go by, and that name has become an idol in a sense, and so be if you're in church, God, that's good, but be in God's church, that's this church, in spirit and the truth. You have to have the right spirit, you have to have the right truth, you have to have Jesus Christ as your leader. You don't worship the people that you know, oh, this is the best, you know. No, you worship Christ, follow me as I follow Christ.

Prince Moon 7:15

That's what I have to say about the real church. Very good. Friends, we're up for a break. Now we'll be right back. We're talking about unity of God's people, church of God, what it is and what it isn't. And

Unity Through Spirit And Truth

Prince Moon 8:35

we're back tonight with our guest, Bernie Tahoke, Father, Grandfather, husband, church of God for years and years and years, an accomplished author. His book we have torn asunder. You can get a copy from us. Also, we have Brother James DeGrafen read, Minister of Church of God for years, father, husband, grandfather. And he has some thoughts for us tonight about unity of God's people, what to look for and what not to look for. If you would, brother James, please.

James DeGraffenreid 9:00

Thank you, Brother Moon. We're thankful to be here at Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches again. Uh, we're so thankful for this podcast and uh trusting the Lord is going to continue to bless as the Lord is uh we we know that it's the Lord's heart that we uh be one as He and our Father in Heaven is is one. He prayed that. And uh as we've shared with you and with you uh uh a few times on this podcast, Brother Moon, uh we know that there is uh reality in the church of God. We know that uh Jesus said that he would build his church and Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church. And we know that Jesus said uh in his word that uh God adds souls to his church daily, such as should be saved. We we know that God's word says that God keeps the record of the redeemed in heaven in the Lamb's book of life. God keeps the record. Man doesn't there there's a lot of roles here that are made up of man. Man keeps them for whatever reason, for whatever flavor of doctrine or denomination that or division that we could. There's so many. Uh I I wouldn't even begin to know all of the different divisions uh in the in that call themselves church. But God's will, Christ's will, is that we be one. As this podcast is endeavoring to bring uh reconciliation and unity.

Prince Moon 11:09

I'm sorry to interrupt you. Any questions from our listeners? Any questions from our listeners?

Tennille McLeod 11:18

I apologize. I'm sorry, I did I did have a comment come in earlier. Tamika Henry from Jesus is my reason said amen. So just wanted to put that there.

Prince Moon 11:29

Yes. Thank you. James, sorry to interrupt you, my friend. Go right ahead, please.

James DeGraffenreid 11:33

No, that's fine, brother.

Prince Moon 11:34

Uh he said amen to you.

James DeGraffenreid 11:37

Well, thank the Lord. This brother, if we if we are honest and we're willing to let the word of God be our authority, as brother Bernie's just said, not man's rule, but if we let God rule, if we let if we give the word and the spirit the place that God requires and God wants, brother, we will, we will be one. We will be a fulfillment of Christ Jesus' prayer. And we will be the church that dear brother Bernie spoke about, the spirit, the church that Jesus spoke to the woman at the well. He said, You're not going to worship in Jerusalem anymore. You're not going to worship in any any specific place, but they that worship me will worship me in spirit and in truth, brother. There's a witness that comes, just like the Bible says, uh uh, his spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we're his child. In the same way, his spirit bears witness between the brother and the sisters that we are uh of Christ, we are in him. As John said, we love each other with the with godly the agape love, the the the love from God. God binds our hearts together in him and in his love, brother. That is the church of God.

Prince Moon 13:21

That's true.

James DeGraffenreid 13:22

It's simple, it's simple, brother Moon.

Prince Moon 13:24

It is simple, very simple.

James DeGraffenreid 13:26

But but but man has complicated it, and and as we can look everywhere. I used to live in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Brother, there's almost a church on every corner there, and across the corner, caddy corner, there's a bar. Now, brother, listen, I'm telling you the truth. The the man has made a mess of what God established for the salvation of this world. And the enemy has used it to confuse souls from being saved. And what we're doing here on this podcast, brother Moon, is with the help of the Lord, we're trying to lift Jesus up and and not let, as bur, as Brother Bernie said, let not church the name over the door doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, brother Moon. The church is made up of every blood washed one. And as the church of God has preached and their right to preach, we extend our hand in fellowship to every blood washed one. It doesn't matter what name they've been saved under. We don't want man's rule, we don't want man's label, we don't want, as brother Bernie said, we don't want 666 on our forehead. We want God's mark. We want the Holy Spirit and the Word, and that's all. That's all we need.

Prince Moon 15:06

And there's a couple a couple of questions for you tonight. I've heard you all say this earlier, define for me, and I want to ask brother Dan

What We Are It Really Means

Prince Moon 15:14

also too, brother Bernie, too. I've heard the saying we are it. What does that mean when they say we are it? What does that implicate?

James DeGraffenreid 15:22

You want to talk, brother Bernie?

Bernie Tocholke 15:24

Oh, we are it. Um, when I was in a restoration, church guide restoration, that uh everybody else was Babylon. They called them Babylon, but they called it out. It doesn't matter what flavor you, brother Moon, would be Babylon because you're not with them. They are it. You are wrong. You gotta join them, you gotta join the restoration to be right with God. It doesn't matter if you have salvation. Jesus did an incomplete work according to them. Yes, everybody is saved. You know, the most important decision you make in life is to get accept Jesus Christ as your savior, but that's not complete yet. That's an incomplete work. You have to join them. Now you're complete. And that was the it, that was the it part.

James DeGraffenreid 16:12

Well, that was what started, brother Moon. You you mentioned all that brother Bernie went through.

Prince Moon 16:18

Yes, yes, yes.

James DeGraffenreid 16:20

It all started when bro when Brother Bernie brought this to the man who was supposed to be his pastor, and he and Brother Bernie tried to talk with him about what we're talking about tonight. And that's what started Brother Bernie's trouble and his and his heartache and the problems that he went through, simply because he tried to do what we're trying to do tonight.

Prince Moon 16:52

This idea of uh we are it, did you experience that also, too?

James DeGraffenreid 16:59

Yes, brother. Listen, you know, dear brother, I was raised a Southern Baptist. The Southern Baptists believe they're it. The Math the Methodists believe they're it. The Assembly of God believes they're it. The Catholics believe they're it. Everyone believes they're it, brother Moon. And we've got how how many how many Church of God splinters have we have we uh splintered and there's going off if they don't believe, like I said, if you don't wear a necktie, you're not saved. If you wear a necktie, you're not saved. If you button your top button, you're not saved. If you don't button your top button, you're not saved. You know, brother, listen, man has built the divisions, brother Moon. And like dear, like dear brother Bernie said, there is a witness, and there and God has uh a church that is spirit and truth and truth, spirit and truth. It's his church, brother. It's not man's church. And anytime that a pastor and it doesn't have to be the C O G R where Bernie and I uh were in, it doesn't have to be a cult, it can simply be a place where people gather and the pastor is ruling. The people are looking to the pastor instead of looking to Christ. They're they're they're letting the pastor dictate what they believe. They're not reading their Bible, they don't have a close walk with Christ. When they read if they read the Bible, they're not hearing Jesus talk to their heart. They're not sensitive to the dealings of the Holy Spirit through throughout the day. They just go to church on Sunday, maybe just go to church on Christmas and Easter, and that's all, but yet they'll say, Oh, yeah, I'm a Christian. Are you? They're not brother, brother Moon, they are no more a Christian than the the person who does not profess to be a Christian because Christ requires us Jesus said, What's the first and greatest commandment that you love the Lord your God with all of your heart with all your soul, your mind, your brain. And the second is likened to it, you love your neighbor as your own. Now listen, it's not complicated, Brother Moon. But people have it's like I I read this the other day. When a society makes a lot of rules or a lot of laws, the laws are mainly made so people can break the law. And that's that's the way it is with man's doctrine. Man rule is not letting Christ dwell in your heart and being your Lord and your savior. Uh there's a saying about uh true true salvation is a man out in his fishing boat thinking about the Lord. Religion is when a man's sitting in the pew thinking about going fishing.

Prince Moon 20:46

I like that. In our last moments, brother Bernie, brother James, we're talking

Healing After Church Hurt

Prince Moon 20:53

to someone tonight who's been through what you've been through. They've been through the the damage. Maybe some have damaged some people tonight, ministers, those who've been hurt or have been hurt. Any advice to them, brother Dan? First, please, if you would. Is there help for them that they've been wounded or they've hurt someone, they feel the conviction of what you're saying? What should they do? Any advice, please?

James DeGraffenreid 21:19

Bernie, you want to try you want to say?

Bernie Tocholke 21:22

Okay. Um, in defense of you, you mentioned some brother James, you mentioned some churches by name. It doesn't matter what name I'm gonna throw out there, but there might be a portion, just a tiny little portion of whatever denomination is that are part of God's church. A small one, okay. The main focus should be to be in God's church. If there's hurt, move away from that part and stay with this part, stay with God's church, stay where you can be uh challenged to grow. Yes, yes, it's just a scripture, if it's in the group, and in defense of the church of God, it is good that they use the name, the church of God at the Thessalonica, the church of God at Corinth, the church of God, whatever addresses to that. But I believe it was a different instead of just the structure that we're talking about here, it wouldn't be the the the church of God, more of the God's church, the spirit and in truth. So it is good that they use the name. If I had a wife that uh wasn't uh in the Spanish descent in uh like um um South America or so, they do not take on the last man's name. That is uh strange to me, and so if they don't use the church of God as a name, that would be a little offensive to me. So I want to be saying it's a good thing to be called the church of God, but it's not required in a sense, in a sense, to be in God's church, in that sense, be in. God's church is the most important. So if you are hurt, stay, move over, do what the scriptures say. Be wholesome. Be right with God. And you have it. Get away from the man rule. Get away from the the rules of that are contrary to scripture.

Prince Moon 23:27

Amen. Last-minute comments?

James DeGraffenreid 23:30

Well, to answer your comment, you said about if someone's been hurt or someone is hurt, what do they do? We've spoken about this before on your on this podcast, Brother Moon. There's only one way to find reconciliation, and that's for the person who has harmed or who is hurt to humble themselves. As Jesus said, if if you leave your gift at the altar, go and be reconciled to your brother. We're seeing this now in the C O G R, Brother Moon. The Lord has exposed the evil in that cult of the Church of God restoration. God has exposed the evil and God is tearing that place down. But we find that the leaders there, the apostles, we call them the apostates of that place, they're not fought, they're not seeking reconciliation. They're trying to sweep their their sins under the rug. They're expecting people to just forgive and forget. And they're going to continue on or try they're trying to continue on just like they've always uh done. So as we've said before, God has a way that we can be made whole. God has a way that we can find help and healing.

Prince Moon 25:03

Amen. Amen.

James DeGraffenreid 25:04

But it has to be his way, brother Moon. It has to be his way. Now on the other side, if someone's been hurt, someone's been harmed, the the only thing they can do, the Jesus said, if you have aught with your brother, forgive. Jesus said, if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven. So these are the things that God requires us to do, brother Mood. On both sides to seek reconciliation, the party who has harmed must come to the one who they who they've harmed. And be willing to apologize, be be willing to make restitution. You know, Zacchaeus, when Zacchaeus met Jesus, he told Jesus, if I've uh wronged any man, I'll give back fourfold. Fourfold. And I'm gonna give half of all that I have to the poor. Brother, Jesus didn't tell him to do that. He told Jesus, that's what I'm gonna do. And Christ said, Today salvation has come to this house.

Prince Moon 26:18

Wow. Just James, we hate to break, but our time is gone. I want to thank our guests

Part Two Preview And Closing

Prince Moon 26:25

for being here tonight. We're gonna have a part two next week. But we're just glad to have you guys here. Our engineer, thank you so much. Those who've chimed in, thank you all so much. So, part two will be next week, and we'll take this to get what we can do to enhance unity in God's church. We'll be with you next week. Have a good night. Thanks so much.